64 - Samstag: The Intersection of Psychology and Leadership

Dr. Nicholas Samstag is a psychoanalyst and clinical psychologist based in New York City. With a diverse background spanning theater to ancient Greek and Latin studies, his journey into psychology and psychoanalysis has been influenced by a range of experiences. 

In this episode, Nicholas discusses how his varied path shaped his approach to psychoanalysis and leadership, and offers elegant insights into human nature and leadership, reflecting on:

🎙️parallels between theater and therapy, emphasizing the importance of feeling secure and playful in both settings, as well as in the work environment;

🎙️the intersection of psychology and leadership, highlighting the importance of recognizing one's humanity in a professional setting;

🎙️how leaders should prioritize understanding their own psychology and their own stories and experiences, and how they can impact the dynamics within their teams; 

🎙️how fostering a culture of curiosity and psychological awareness can create environments where people feel valued and secure, ultimately leading to better collaboration and innovation;

🎙️how leaders can develop the power to notice more, be present, and be aware of their own and others' dynamics in the workplace.

Overall, a great conversation packed with valuable insights into the connection between psychology, leadership, and creating supportive work environments.

Transcript

0:00

Often part of the difficulties I see has specifically to do with people carving themselves up into little roles, right?

Nicholas: 0:08

And then if that's part of the question of what can leaders do, I think then it becomes much more interesting. I think what leaders can do is

0:16

you have in every institution, church, military, politics, schools. Certainly you have a, you have endless reiterations of family dynamics and that's, that's not good or bad that that's a silly question. It just is, that's how the culture is assigning value. So as a leader, as a entrepreneur, as a person in power, you have an enormous responsibility, not just in terms of the concrete details of the business, but you have, you're in a psychological environment where there's

Nick: 0:49

This is one of these episodes in which we explore the intersection between psychology and leadership together with Nicholas Samstag, a psychoanalyst and clinical psychologist Based in New York city. If you're interested to hear how to bring your story to work and what can fostering a culture of curiosity do for you as a leader, we invite you to tune in and get your healthy dose of learning today. And if you've not done so already, please subscribe to our YouTube channel or our podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts. So you never miss an episode. Welcome to the nordic leaders podcast on the call today We have the inimitable David Goddard

David: 1:34

Hello, Nick.

Nick: 1:36

Our very special guest today is nicholas sam stark nicholas Good morning and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

Nicholas: 1:45

Thanks so much. I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me.

Nick: 1:48

It's great to see you Dr. Nicholas Samstag is a psychoanalyst and clinical psychologist living and working in New York City. He holds a PhD in clinical psychology, a certificate in psychoanalysis from the William Allison White Institute, completed advanced training, in emotionally focused therapy for couples. Complementing his professional education is a strong background in classics and in literature that richly informs his work. So we're very excited to welcome Nicholas to the podcast today. You've had quite a diverse journey. So from theater to studying ancient Greek and Latin, and then moving into psychology and psychoanalysis, how have these diverse experiences influenced your approach to psychoanalysis and to leadership?

Nicholas: 2:41

thanks so much. Whenever I hear that played back to me, I have the sense really that I actually have that much of a circuitous route to where I am, but I did. And I think the I think the word that I hear in that question that resonates most strongly is experience. I had a pretty Troubling childhood and early life. And I didn't really know what I was doing in many ways. And I started pursuing very strongly a disparate area of things, and I enjoyed them all. I enjoyed theater, by the way, is theater really good. Someone needs therapy and doesn't know it it offers one an opportunity to access parts of oneself in a relatively safe environment. It's like bad therapy, but it's better than no therapy. Anyway. I was interested in that and I was very interested in the literature involved and the various, zigs and zags of my career brought me closer and closer to psychoanalysis. I actually started reading about psychoanalysis when I was studying theater. A great German dramaturge, Stanislavski. who read a lot of Freud and asked his actors to create psychological profiles and backgrounds. Anyway, so I did that. I wrote advertising for a while. I did it. I did a bunch of other things. And at a certain point, I got into my own treatment this was really important that I'd be in treatment. And I got a lot out of it. I thought, you know what, I might be able to do this. So I went back to school and did it. Got all various certificates and degrees. I think to answer your question now I think all of those different zigs and zags made me more aware of what I wanted and I didn't feel comfortable in any one particular, but when I found psychoanalysis I found my home. I get to think about and experience a wide array of things. Human endeavors, which I really like. all those different things did have a purpose. And specifically with literature, I'm not the first person to say this, but psychoanalysis can be looked at as a literature. It has aspects of, it does have aspects of science and has aspects of this and that. But, it's a, it can be an elegant way of understanding some profound questions about what it means to be human. And I think if engaged, with a certain amount of humility and wonder and curiosity, it can be very effective for many people. So that's why.

Nick: 4:52

Wow. Nicholas, thank you. a good answer. I've heard zigs and zags a few times. I've heard about a circuitous route and and literature. It was interesting what you were saying about theatre. It's like therapy, maybe bad therapy, I think you said, but it's better than no therapy.

Nicholas: 5:09

I think so. I was, again I came out of a not great environment in many ways. And I think There was something about playing, playing is something that I think about very often in my work, with playing acting as an actor, playing as a person, you have to be secure in order to do that. Nobody's sitting in a district in a war is going to be playful. So I think that theater paradoxically gives one a sense of. Safety. Specifically, it's non reality. Like you're playing the baker, you're playing the policeman, you're playing whatever you're playing and that there can be a very rich and engaged series of events for you there and nothing's really at stake because when the show's over, you go home. So it's like you're trying on different aspects of things, which can be very much like therapy actually.

Nick: 5:56

Yeah. interesting. I sometimes I don't know about David, but sometimes when we're working with our clients, coaching or facilitating or working with teams, helping them to play better with each other. It is actually a good reminder that we stopped playing and we stopped being kids. And there's the thing that when we become adults we have to start being serious and maybe where. Business clothing and go to an office and be all serious. And that element of playing is so important for all of us, not just kids.

Nicholas: 6:30

Yeah, absolutely.

David: 6:32

I was just picking up on the words at the end there Of wonder and curiosity is the, how do we make room for that in our busy modern lives? Nicholas, if we could just like tap into your experience, in, in that psychoanalysis setting how, what could leaders learn that would help them. rediscover their wonder and curiosity. Cause I think that we all have it naturally as children, but we just put a lid on it that I love what you said about the theater, trying on different roles and stuff and what Nick was talking about and playing. So a bit of a long winded question, but.

Nicholas: 7:13

No, it's a great question. It's a great question. I think yeah, I was thinking about these questions that focus on leadership and entrepreneurs, which is, of course, relevant to what brings us here today. I think that it's worth saying that, we're people first. Often part of the difficulties I see has specifically to do with people carving themselves up into little roles, right? I'm a professional. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a leader. And there's certainly conversations to be had that are specific to those categorical role assignments. But I think what's often missed is the through line and the through line is your person. You were born someplace. You had early history, you had experiences. And then if that's part of the question of what can leaders do, I think then it becomes much more interesting. I think what leaders can do is to get in touch with their humanity, like the rest of us.

Nick: 8:03

And if you've not done so already, please subscribe to our YouTube channel or our podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts.

Nicholas: 8:12

And so if you're in a business setting or you're in a personal setting and you're in any setting and you have a greater sense of who you are and you have some, we'll talk about this in a while, psychological acumen if you're able to be present and notice what's happening on a human level, things go better. And I think maybe to answer your question more specifically than I have so far, I think leaders. And institutions are necessarily recreations of family dynamics. When you walk into a business and you have a boss or you have a CEO or you have a, somebody you work for the the psychological transference and the assumptions that everyone makes is that you as the leader are in essence, it's a kind of in loco parentu situation, the place of parents, right? So the, you have every institution, church. Military, politics, school, certainly you have a, you have endless reiterations of family dynamics and that's, that's not a good or bad, that's a silly question. It just is. That's how the culture is assigning value. So as a leader, as a entrepreneur, as a person in power, you have an enormous responsibility, not just in terms of the concrete details of the business, but you have, you're in a psychological environment where people look to you as the father, as the mother. And you better be on your game in terms of that. Otherwise everything goes badly.

David: 9:41

So a nice overlap with the sphere where Nick and I work in coaching is that's also a, it's a very common thing that presents in coaching is how do I really connect with the people in my team and be a leader of people using my humanity. Because the leaders are usually got a whole bunch of stuff that they need to execute, and their strategies and their implementations. And so they're very task focused. And there's maybe not so much room to really notice the human being in front of them.

Nicholas: 10:17

I think you have to make the room. You have to make the room. It's not, this, I don't know of any culture that embraces psychological awareness from the, from, from the early infancy. But I think, too bad that we see psychological awareness as a kind of, non, non manly or not practical or, and this is, This is a of enormous consequence, your psychology travels with you and when you're in a business setting or war setting or, your air traffic controller, whatever the tension, whatever the state, however high the stakes are, your psychology and everyone else's is still online. not like it ever goes away. And so while it might be, it might feel daunting to come to think, Oh, Jesus, I'm running this place. It's like a house on fire. And I have to be psychologically aware. Yeah, you do.

David: 11:04

So if the whole human being comes to work, then you don't leave your values or your awareness or your psychological awareness at home.

Nicholas: 11:13

Exactly. And I don't think it takes much when I say this. I'm not thinking of anything fancy. I don't think people have to go into psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis is not for everybody. But I do think that with a fair amount of. Coaching or instruction leaders, business leaders, entrepreneurs, all that they could really learn something about this because there's nothing. There's nothing more practical than having people feel recognized and people don't feel recognized. They feel like they're robots. Often, not always often.

David: 11:44

I think it also gives a great opportunity though for leadership going forward because it's a, leadership is, A uniquely human activity in that way is not robots don't lead. So the robots maybe give you answers but they're not very good at asking questions. And they may be are extremely good processing information, but they're not very good at dreaming. So all of the things that are uniquely human, I think are bound up also in, in, inside leadership.

Nicholas: 12:16

That's right. Yeah, totally. Totally. And they're not. I don't think there are. I don't think There are nearly enough avenues in the business settings for that to be made clear. There's a series of false dichotomies, we can't be psychologically aware because it's not practical or it's not, it doesn't make money or something, but it's. Those companies, and I'm sure you guys know this, the company is that Harvard business school and business schools, companies who pay attention. It sounds obvious to the psychological realities in front of them, do better. People want to work there. People want to work there. They feel more secure. They feel more able to share their ideas. And sometimes the best ideas come from, some kid in the mail room, but he's not going to tell you his idea if he feels it. He's going to be squashed.

David: 13:02

Nick, I'd just like to bring you back into the conversation. I can see you getting excited there on the side of the screen. And Nicholas was talking about a lot of, I think you used the word practical quite a few times. So Nick, did you have a question about practicality?

Nick: 13:20

what I've heard the, this idea that your psychology travels with you. That was nice. And thinking about leadership and leaders and companies. So a leader takes their psychology with them. And at the same time, one of their key roles is to help people to collaborate, to come together. And do great things and also connecting another thing that, that Nicholas, you said about, work is a recreation of family dynamics. So I just think about those things that you were saying, what can you tell us, the leaders and the specialists and project managers and HR directors who are listening to this right now? How can they take those thoughts and become more self-aware or effective in the workplace.

Nicholas: 14:11

Yeah, no, I think that's a, I think that's a right on question. I think in my experience and some companies do this, the when they interview for positions, once they've gotten through the, whatever the criteria are, the education, the knowledge, the salary, the all that part of the interview is a kind of, psychological inquiry. They ask about the person's past. Were you the oldest of seven kids? Were you the youngest? That's a big difference. What was your early life like? Nothing, that I would consider to be intrusive or, or bizarre. But, where do you just look? People feel I'll say this over and over again. People feel people do much better when they feel secure. And part of being part of feeling secure is to have. People, especially in surrogate roles of, family and mother and fathers and all that. If people are actually interested in you in some just basic way, people tend to feel more secure. What was it like? Did you go to camp? Are you athletic? What, how do you spend your free time? And to help create a culture not of psychological intrusiveness. And again, nothing fancy, but just, Who are these people? You're with them all day long. You spend more time at the office than you do anything. Do you know anything about them? As I said in my response to those great questions, it's amazing to me. We typically don't know the color eyes of the people we're talking to. We just don't know. We don't pay attention. So I think, that's a running theme in all of my responses, is that how do you do that? You become curious. You consider that knowing those things, knowing those specific psychological aspects, background aspects of the people you're working with, that's a very practical, those people will want to come to work in the morning, right? As opposed to hi, how was my weekend? Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares, right? If somebody likes this, like likes to be skiing and they come in and you say how are the slopes, but you have to mean it, right? You have to be interested and it's not, these are not dichotomies. It's not a dichotomy to be psychologically connected and effective and practical. Those are not antithetical. Those are, those can be greatly combined. Doesn't take a lot of time. It's not expensive.

David: 16:29

yeah, it's not expensive. I feel like we're getting something for free here because there's lots of ideas coming into my mind from my childhood. I don't know, you're just pressing a few buttons up there. This birth order question. So I'm the youngest of three boys.

Nick: 16:46

we go. Yeah,

David: 16:52

role in my adult relationships, particularly with work colleagues, that, the bit too bigger brothers know more than me. And they definitely know something that's going on that my parents are not telling me because I'm too young.

Nicholas: 17:08

Sure.

David: 17:09

And it's when it pops into my head, In that obvious form, you can get rid of it. And it's easy to laugh at it and distance it. But the problem is that it's often sneakily buried in the back of my mind. Doesn't present itself. So I thought I, what I try to do is notice the dynamics in a group setting a little bit more and what's also, what's my role in it. So what role did I play in the meeting? And Did I take my turn to speak? Did I talk over somebody? So I think I won't get to speak if I don't, just noticing things. I noticed you, I noticed Nicholas, that you've been talking quite a lot about noticing is, and you mentioned safety. What else comes to your mind? How we can develop that power to notice more, be more present, be more aware.

Nicholas: 18:03

I think the most direct way of doing that, one of the most direct ways of doing that is to model that behavior. If you as the leader, you don't have to, you don't have to sit down and actually talk about this explicitly, necessarily, you may have to, but, if the CEO or the person in charge is a genuine person and is able to pay attention to the people around them, then that will set a standard if they go around and they, they cuss people out and they slam doors, that will be mimicked to it's not, it's not, Absolutely precise. I'm not saying that, because of birth order or family dynamics, the office situation will work exactly like that. But I am saying it's always in many ways of recreation of that. And so the people who speak the loudest and seem to have the most confidence often had it for a long time. And one of the things that I always am impressed by in terms of psychology is how much of life is just a reiteration of earlier things. It's very rare that people have the interest or the wherewithal to actually see that, so after you, I don't know, there's no magic number, but after 10, 15, 17, I don't know, it's done for most people. They don't have really any more, they don't have really any different experiences or relationships. I should say, they just keep having the same ones. How many people do we know who are telling you the same story? They're always beleaguered or they're always, This is always that well, they've been, they've been on the planet for 30 years. It's like, how's that possible?

David: 19:28

why does this always happen to me?

Nick: 19:32

that's interesting.

David: 19:33

We did that in our team actually, we say in the Nordic leadership network team we've a couple of times, we've had a session where we've shared just simple things like tell us something about when you were growing up, where you grew up and or an interesting A challenge that you overcame as a in your childhood. And one of our crew, Emma Jelly, took us through a visual exercise doing this, that we were making stories and

Nicholas: 20:02

You know what? A great question is a great question is what's your earliest memory? And then to think about that as a kind of talking about me now my earliest memory is of playing with a What do you even call it? It was a lipstick container of my mother's that I found in the grass. And it was ingenious to my young eye. It was gold. I think it was gold and leather maybe. And you twisted it and a little like snake like tongue popped out of the top. And I was enamored with that.

Nick: 20:34

Wow.

Nicholas: 20:34

That's my earliest memory. So

Nick: 20:37

David, could you, what's your first memory? Oh, you've got one. Oh, this is going to be good.

David: 20:44

Nothing that I could share in public. I think that's it.

Nicholas: 20:46

This is a family show,

David: 20:48

Yeah, exactly.

Nick: 20:49

while you're, David, while you're thinking it's interesting what Nicola was just saying that, with most of our. Lives is a repeat. It's interesting that I think it was Ellen Langer was talking about, the two about mindfulness and how we typically repeat 90 percent of what we did yesterday and the day before. So I lied. Our daily lives don't change that much. So it really makes sense to me. What Nicholas is saying that we're telling the same stories. We're reliving the same thoughts and feelings, a lot of the time.

Nicholas: 21:23

I'm not sure what anyone means when they say good thoughts or bad thoughts, but I think that I think the way to be, one way to be more present is to be, is to try to put language to your experience. What does it feel like? There's a, among the very famous people that I've studied. All this, but there was one guy and he wrote tons of books. He's a lovely fellow. But he was, he would basically say to all his patients all the time, what was that like? What was it like? And he wouldn't let them go until he felt that they had really put language to experience. None of this. It was fine. It was bad. It was good. No. What was the, what was the color of the day? Where were you? How did it feel when bus passed? Whatever it was. What was your experience? It's one of the things that we've found from infant studies and lots of other research that with parents or mothers, caregivers and the most important things we can do with our kids is to ask them, what's it like, what is this like? not, there's obviously no right answer there,

David: 22:24

What is it like then to be Nicholas Samstag today?

Nicholas: 22:29

having a good time with you chaps. That's for sure.

David: 22:32

I was just fishing to see, what's the quality of your guest experience right now. I have a question that just popped into my mind. If I may How hopeful are you around Leadership for the future. You were talking about genuine leadership just now, and you're also talking about being more human or more in touch with humanity. And at one level, I can see that there is a, there's much more awareness around this leadership development as a topic has been, as a subject has been around for decades now and most all the literature and it, all pushes it in that same direction that we need to be more, more human, more people focused. My experience is slightly different. I don't want to get into politics. I'm. British Finnish nationality. I'm not impressed with, let's say the, at a societal level, the leaders that we have right now. Maybe I'm just getting a grumpy old man, but they don't seem to be the best crew that we've had. And I'm not going to go over to New York and ask you about your leaders, but how about you? How do you feel hopeful for the future? Because we should have a lot more knowledge about this stuff now.

Nicholas: 23:48

It's interesting. I think the since I recently started this podcast journey, I've I've spoken to some very young CEOs and entrepreneurs and all that, and I will say this is a small sample size, but I will say that I was very impressed by how relatively open they are compared to older folks. Having said that, I completely agree with you, David. I think we're in the shitter in terms of leadership. But I think I think again, As I said in one of my responses to your questions that we are all self selected samples. Self selected samples simply means that we are, we gravitate to careers that articulate how we think and who we are in many ways. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy. But it means that it's a good fit. So if you're asking a question about leaders, the first thing that comes to my mind, which may sound cynical, is narcissism, right? Which isn't always true. And narcissism isn't a dirty word. And there's certainly good aspects of narcissism. Chris, by the way, Christopher Lash in 1954, if anybody's interested, wrote one of my favorite books called The Culture of Narcissism. And he would be turning his grave and on fire if he was alive now. But I think when you look at people who want to be, how do I say this judiciously, I think that there are leaders business, political, scholastic, whatever leaders who aren't that interested in being leaders per se, but they're really engaged by their work and they happen to be, they went up through the ranks and now they're leaders. There are other people who really do want to control people. They want a lot of power. And that would be the headline for those folks. They don't necessarily have the interest or capacity or wherewithal to to be psychologically minded or to necessarily care as much as we would hope they would. But they really like wielding the baton, and I think that's a distinction for all of us. Like, why are we doing what we're doing? And so I think leaders like the rest of us, need to remind themselves of their humanity. But it is true, and not, I'm a grumpy old man too. Nobody goes into politics, I don't think who is not interested in controlling people and that, for the good, it could be for the good. I want to, I, as a would be politician really want to control these people because I think this is what's good for them, but I'm not so sure that the political class are robust, psychological, folks. They're not. Who would want to do that job actually? Really? I just have these kind of faux debates for the colleague of mine about, the people who are in positions that you, we should only put people in positions of power who don't want to be there, we just put people like some smart person who actually cares, you have to spend two years doing this job. Anyway, that's my take on that.

David: 26:37

Yeah. So I, I don't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member. So some kind of logic there that I don't want politicians who want to be politicians.

Nicholas: 26:54

there's a certain amount of, a huge amount of naivete, right? The populace of any country, I don't think is particularly aware of any of this. What are the three things you should ever talk about at a cocktail party? Sex, politics, and religion. Never talked about those things.

David: 27:09

Yeah. There isn't much else to talk about there after that. Is there? Sorry to interrupt. Nick, thank you, Nicholas. There's some wonderful answers there. I still have a load of questions, but I'm, I'd be also curious to hear, what are you hearing,

Nick: 27:26

Yeah, trust your instincts, David. What's the question that springs to mind?

David: 27:30

One question, just backtracking slightly that the saying that you made in the beginning, Nicholas theater is good for somebody, that needs therapy, but it doesn't really know it. So actually there's two questions there. How do I know? How do I know when I need therapy? And maybe the other question is something along the lines of just help me out a little bit. What's the difference between psychotherapy and psychoanalysis? Who's your client? Who comes to psychoanalysis? That's

Nicholas: 28:06

to talk about. When we talk about psychoanalysis or psychotherapy broadly speaking, we're talking about an assumption That human experience comes from two realms of experience comes from the so called real world perceptions, and it comes from the unconscious and there's no question anymore that we have an unconscious. It's not the, it's not the unconscious of Freud in many cases, but, we do and don't know. I sent you the essay that I wrote, right? We do and don't know what we're talking about. We have. We certainly have aspects of, how we think that can be articulated directly, but then we really don't know anything, you don't know the unconscious until it presents itself and often presents itself and in curious and upsetting ways. So I'd say that therapy, psychotherapy, dynamic psychotherapy assumes that the person has an unconscious and tries to help them get in touch with it. And it's typically done, once or twice a week for as long as the person wants to. I should also say at the beginning that, many, there are many reasons to go into psychotherapy. Some people need psychotherapy, otherwise they'd be put in the hospital, prison, right? Those folks are in serious trouble. On the other side of the bell curve, there are people who are just curious about who they are, where they came from. I got into psychotherapy. So many years ago, because I kept fighting with authority figures, I kept getting promoted and then I would get in there and I would just, I would just go at it with these guys. And I was ever fired. But I, at a certain point, I thought, what's going on here? I've been tapped to do this and tapped to do that. It's all very nice. And then I get in there. It's I don't want to do it. I wouldn't have the job and as obvious as this is, it had a lot to do with my father, a lot to my father. He was a very powerful man. He left when I was four. I had a lot of anger feelings for him. So I think one good reason to go into psychotherapy is not because you're bleeding from the neck psychologically speaking, but because you're interested, you just wonder it's wait, I realized I've been having the same relationships or there's something here that I really want to figure out. You're not necessarily an, an enormous amount of pain. Although, if you are that's another really good reason to go into psychotherapy. But it's not, psychotherapy, certainly psychoanalysis spans the distance from people who are perfectly solid citizens and life is looking really good, but they have some gnawing concerns about. Where they came from and who they are. And on the other hand, people who are in serious need of help. Otherwise they will, hurt themselves or somebody else or, become addicted or. That's a very wide group. The people I deal with, I deal I deal primarily with people in the sort of the first to middle order, people who are, high functioning by any standard, but who are committed to to not repeating everything that they've been repeating and need to know where that comes from. One of the things I talked about a lot is personal and historical narrative. How would you tell your story? And people usually tell very flat stories. I was born here. I went to school there. I fell on my head when I was six, whatever it was. But there's no warp and boof to it. There's little texture. There's almost no nuance. It sounds like a cartoon. And I think, again, in response to all of your good questions, I think leaders, like the rest of us owe it to themselves and the people who work for them. To have a textured personal narrative, there's not one story we can tell about where we come from. There are several, but they're not arbitrary. So how do you see yourself psychoanalysis? Psychoanalysis is, is typically more frequent. So you come more frequently and you spend much more time free associating and not in a kind of linear thinking mode. So the psychotherapy, it's not done. Analysts are not disinterested in what's happening in the so called real world. I'm interested in your, how your kid is and the new car you bought and all of that. I'm interested in all of it, but I'm more interested in you being able to make more connections between what's happening now and what happened then and helping you develop a richer way of understanding. Who you are and what's going on. That's the difference.

David: 32:11

Thank you.

Nick: 32:12

Helpful. David which field do you need most?

David: 32:15

I think getting a more textured personal narrative sounds like me. I'd like to explore that. I could definitely sign up for that. I think my, my, my self talk, that it, inner voice. Could do with a little bit of perspective from time to time. We do, we tend to tell ourselves, at least I do, tend to tell myself the same things. So you do just fall into a trap. So I think getting me to listen to my inner voice and explore it and be curious about it. I think that would be very helpful.

Nicholas: 32:54

Yeah, there's a, there are a number of really cool exercises that some businesses do. I'm often reminded of, I have a 20 year old daughter that just brought home from college. When she was little, I used to put her on my shoulders and walk around the Greenwich village and I would stop and we'd look at a tree and I would ask her what she saw. And then when we came back, I'd stop at the tree again. I'd say, what else did you see? And we would play this game and then she would do it with me. What else do you see? You've seen this once. What else do you see? The next week we'd pass the same tree and I'd say, what do you see? What else did you see? And I think, that's very childish and and fun. And we don't do that. We think, we think, there's a, it's a wonderful another fellow I study with, who's super smart who wrote a book called the fallacy of understanding in which he talks about, and this comes from a various philosophical background people, but, the trap that we often get into where we think, oh, I know that now, there's nothing else to see. I know that. I know that. There's nothing else to say. There's always more to say, always more to say, which is a question of, there's so much to look at. We can't see it all. And we'll never see it all. One of us, we'll never understand every dream. We'll never understand ourselves or other people thoroughly, perfectly. Of course not. But I think if we ask the question, it tends to go better. What am I missing? Not from a screwing up standpoint, but we can't, there's too much to see. And I think when we get into these business situations, certainly work, not just CEOs and, leaders, but, work is one of those life works split that false dichotomy again puts us off on the wrong track. There's nothing separate there in terms of our biology or in terms of our psychology, but it makes it easier to bifurcate, right? It makes it easier to say this thing versus that thing. It's you're the same person. How come you're acting like this? One of my favorite examples is, somebody comes in my office and said, and says, I'm so embarrassed. I took off my clothes and I was dancing on the bar last night. That's not me. And I always say who was that?

David: 34:56

Ha!

Nicholas: 34:56

If it wasn't you, it may not be you in some kind of perfect categorical way, but there was something that you were getting out there. What's going on.

David: 35:04

That makes me think of a very old number by Hawkwind, Silver Machine. I started with, I saw myself going by on the other side of the sky. Hey Nicholas, I really have to leave. I've got a meeting in two minutes, so I'm really sorry to jump out. I think Nick can pursue with you our last question about, personal failure and so forth. It's been a lovely conversation. Thank you so much.

Nicholas: 35:31

Thank you, Dave. I really enjoyed it.

David: 35:33

Thank you. Thank you for being so generous and sharing all of that with us.

Nicholas: 35:37

Sure.

Nick: 35:38

Nicholas, thank you for today. And it's been fascinating to hear your thoughts and I'm, I'd say I'm impressed with the way you've answered all of our questions. Some of them were scripted, most of them weren't, but you didn't skip a beat. And just the example that you told us about earlier with your daughter. Stopping by the tree and asking what do you notice? I think that's, that really take, takes me back to the earlier part of the conversation where you were focusing in on cu curiosity, being curious. It's such a superpower and just noticing the new, noticing different. I think that really helps the mind to see and experience and sense different. different elements around us. So I wonder if you've got time for one more question. Could you share a personal story where you faced failure or learning and how it shaped your understanding or your approach in your professional life. That

Nicholas: 36:55

through with my internship, I was treating this woman who was who was at times fairly psychotic, but psychotic in a kind of friendly, lovely way. Yeah. And she had read a lot of, she had read a lot of Freud, she had read a lot of psychoanalytic literature. She was very engaged by therapy, very engaged by me. She came into my office very theatrical, flounced on my couch, and said, Toilets, toilets, everywhere, as if in a dream. And I assumed that she was just free associating, so I asked her to keep going, and she associated to her early childhood. Her mother was very abusive and shaming to certain unsafe sex, sexual practices. She's crying, horrible. She started laughing and ask more questions. We had a great time together and I had, I saw a few more patients. And then when I left the office, I noticed that there were three brand new toilets in the hall. And then I got in the elevator and there were a few more. It turns out that the building was putting putting new toilets everywhere. And from a psychoanalytic perspective, this, the session was very useful and some good stuff was done there, but I was mortified that I hadn't asked the question how come you're talking about toilets? And one of the, one of the cardinal rules in my business is assume nothing. Assume nothing. And so on the one hand, that was a, I can't say that was a failure capital F, but it was certainly not good clinical practice. And I should know that the analysts should at least have some idea of the difference between fantasy and reality. Since that time, I don't think I've, I don't think I've made that mistake or if I have, it hasn't been as bad as that one.

Nick: 38:35

Is a funny story. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. I have to say it does speak of being very much in the moment though, and going with the flow and going with the client's words, thoughts,

Nicholas: 38:50

Yeah, I think we strive in my business to be, a participant observer, right? Like you have, you need to be engaged, but you also need to have one ear, one eye looking at what's happening.

Nick: 39:02

yeah, participant observer. Nicholas, you've been very active. Participant today. Thank you so much for being with us. It's really, it's been great fun talking to you and learning from you. And I've got loads of notes here with loads of great questions as well. questions like, what's that like? be curious, so drill down, dig a bit deeper with people. and what else do you see? These are great questions for, all of us to be using every day. So Nicholas, thank you so much for being with us today.

Nicholas: 39:36

Thank you so much for having me. I had a great time.